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What We've Learned Managing Outsourced BDRs

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  1. Soften your qualification criteria – With the amount of turnover, it’s harder for outsourced BDRs to become fully fluent in your BANT (budget, authority, need and timeline) criteria.  Consider a lighter qualification, such as “Need plus something else,” or “2+ partial BANT”. Sales reps simply don’t hold themselves accountable until it’s in their pipeline. Your outsourced BDR team needs direct access to Salesforce – This one is a deal breaker.  Batching files every night is a nightmare.

    In Account allocation and ownership

  2. Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both? How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events?

    In Account-contact mapping

  3. Get your s%!t together outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems. Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  4. Get your s%!t together the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  5. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Have you defined the lifecycle stages? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  6. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  7. Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is? Are rejection reasons standardized? Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  8. Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both? How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  9. Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned? Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? While you start vetting agencies, work through these internal debates and document/automate everything.  Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared.

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  10. Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  11. Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete?

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  12. How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? While you start vetting agencies, work through these internal debates and document/automate everything. Create an SLA you believe in

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  13. How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared. Create an SLA you believe in

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  14. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  15. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  16. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time. Get your s%!t together

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  17. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention. Get your s%!t together

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  18. Going forward, SLA compliance will become a mission-critical KPI. SLAs are pretty emotional topics… we’ve seen teams who can crush 8-minute SLAs, and we’ve seen reps protest that 48 hours is too tight! Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data. Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity.

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  19. Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data.  Our client found: Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead.

    In Briefing an outsourced SDR agency

  20. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  21. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  22. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time. Get your s%!t together

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  23. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention. Get your s%!t together

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  24. Hire an FTE internally even if you hire an outsourced BDR team, you still need a full-time employee to manage the program. Running reports and analyzing results

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  25. How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? While you start vetting agencies, work through these internal debates and document/automate everything. Create an SLA you believe in

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  26. How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared. Create an SLA you believe in

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  27. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Have you defined the lifecycle stages? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  28. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  29. Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is? Are rejection reasons standardized? Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  30. Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both? How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  31. Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned? Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? While you start vetting agencies, work through these internal debates and document/automate everything.  Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared.

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  32. Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  33. Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete?

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  34. Going forward, SLA compliance will become a mission-critical KPI. SLAs are pretty emotional topics… we’ve seen teams who can crush 8-minute SLAs, and we’ve seen reps protest that 48 hours is too tight! Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data. Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity.

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  35. Create an SLA you believe in we’ve seen teams who can crush 8-minute SLAs, and we’ve seen reps protest that 48 hours is too tight! Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data.  Our client found:

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  36. Emails only worked for hand raisers (like “contact us” form fills).  Prospects registering for webinars or downloading content simply didn’t respond to email. And remember, SLAs go both ways! How timely will lists be uploaded after events or campaigns? Hire an FTE internally

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  37. Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data.  Our client found: Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead.

    In Client-agency operating cadence

  38. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Integration boundaries and handoffs

  39. Make it dead easy for outsourced BDRs to find and call high priority leads Whether it’s a lead queue, SLA alert, or dashboard, reduce all friction in finding and calling leads. In this dashboard, reps, sales managers, and marketing managers can slice/dice by lead status, SLA, campaign, parent campaign, owner, sales team, manager, timeframe, etc.

    In Lead routing and assignment

  40. Measure rep capacity early and often If you’re generating 4000 leads a month, and only have the headcount to call 1800 leads a month… well, you do the math. But this is one of the best perks of an outsourced BDR agency:  the demand gen and events teams can model busy seasons, and expand/contract the BDR team when needed.

    In Outbound capacity modeling

  41. Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete?

    In Outbound reporting dashboards

  42. Get your s%!t together the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  43. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  44. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  45. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time. Get your s%!t together

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  46. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention. Get your s%!t together

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  47. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement. Get your s%!t together

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  48. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Have you defined the lifecycle stages? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  49. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  50. Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is? Are rejection reasons standardized? Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  51. Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  52. Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both? How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  53. Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both?  How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned? Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? While you start vetting agencies, work through these internal debates and document/automate everything.  Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  54. Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified? Do you have clear reporting into volume, attribution, and velocity? Is your data clean and complete?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  55. Hire an FTE internally even if you hire an outsourced BDR team, you still need a full-time employee to manage the program. Running reports and analyzing results

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  56. And constantly adapting to changing needs If you hire a BDR agency, they should not report to a sales manager or a marketing ops manager. Pick an agency on the merits of their team manager

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  57. And constantly adapting to changing needs They just won’t be given the time/attention they need, and the program will fail. Pick an agency on the merits of their team manager

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  58. This one may sting – even if you hire an outsourced BDR team, you still need a full-time employee to manage the program.  Every single week will be consumed with: Running reports and analyzing results QAing transfers and ensuring no lead is left behind

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  59. Running reports and analyzing results QAing transfers and ensuring no lead is left behind Resolving questions and technical issues

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  60. QAing transfers and ensuring no lead is left behind Resolving questions and technical issues Augmenting data and refining lists

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  61. Pick an agency on the merits of their team manager Pick an agency based on the strengths of their team manager, and evaluate them with the same scrutiny as an internal hire. We look for a BDR manager who:

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  62. We look for a BDR manager who: Intimately understands the entire BDR process, including working the lead queue, using the script, sending emails, [re]scheduling meetings, and entering data into Salesforce. Is ready and willing to distribute and QA every lead.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  63. Intimately understands the entire BDR process, including working the lead queue, using the script, sending emails, [re]scheduling meetings, and entering data into Salesforce. Is ready and willing to distribute and QA every lead. Updates lists and flags problems.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  64. Is ready and willing to distribute and QA every lead. Updates lists and flags problems. Can learn and further teach your ICP, key persona, competitors, and product differentiators.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  65. Updates lists and flags problems. Can learn and further teach your ICP, key persona, competitors, and product differentiators. Creates and analyzes Salesforce reports every day.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  66. Creates and analyzes Salesforce reports every day. If money is tight, begin your engagement with a solid month just getting the agency’s BDR manager up to speed and building that relationship. Make it dead easy for outsourced BDRs to find and call high priority leads

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  67. Creates and analyzes Salesforce reports every day. Then bring in the actual reps who will “smile and dial”. Make it dead easy for outsourced BDRs to find and call high priority leads

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  68. Make it dead easy for outsourced BDRs to find and call high priority leads Whether it’s a lead queue, SLA alert, or dashboard, reduce all friction in finding and calling leads. In this dashboard, reps, sales managers, and marketing managers can slice/dice by lead status, SLA, campaign, parent campaign, owner, sales team, manager, timeframe, etc.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  69. On the same dashboard, reps can see their entire call list and take immediate action against each contact: And everyone is working from a single source of truth, and holding each other accountable: Measure rep capacity early and often

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  70. Measure rep capacity early and often If you’re generating 4000 leads a month, and only have the headcount to call 1800 leads a month… well, you do the math. But this is one of the best perks of an outsourced BDR agency:  the demand gen and events teams can model busy seasons, and expand/contract the BDR team when needed.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  71. Going forward, SLA compliance will become a mission-critical KPI. SLAs are pretty emotional topics… we’ve seen teams who can crush 8-minute SLAs, and we’ve seen reps protest that 48 hours is too tight! Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data. Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  72. Define your new SLA carefully, using performance data.  Our client found: Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  73. Speaking on the phone within the first 24 hours was the most predictive factor to finding an Opportunity. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead. Emails only worked for hand raisers (like “contact us” form fills).  Prospects registering for webinars or downloading content simply didn’t respond to email.

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  74. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead. Emails only worked for hand raisers (like “contact us” form fills). And remember, SLAs go both ways!  How timely will lists be uploaded after events or campaigns?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  75. After 6 attempted phone calls, the lead was dead. Prospects registering for webinars or downloading content simply didn’t respond to email. And remember, SLAs go both ways!  How timely will lists be uploaded after events or campaigns?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  76. Emails only worked for hand raisers (like “contact us” form fills).  Prospects registering for webinars or downloading content simply didn’t respond to email. And remember, SLAs go both ways! How timely will lists be uploaded after events or campaigns? Hire an FTE internally

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  77. Get your s%!t together outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems. Have you defined the lifecycle stages?  Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams?

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  78. How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events? Otherwise you’ll waste months of agency fees hitting every obstacle you’ve haven’t cleared. Create an SLA you believe in

    In Outsourced SDR agency onboarding

  79. Updates lists and flags problems. Can learn and further teach your ICP, key persona, competitors, and product differentiators. Creates and analyzes Salesforce reports every day.

    In Product and ICP training

  80. Is your data clean and complete? Are you using Leads, Contacts, or both? How do you match Leads to Accounts? How are leads assigned?  Do you “pace” large list uploads from content syndication or events?

    In Prospect list schema

  81. We look for a BDR manager who: Intimately understands the entire BDR process, including working the lead queue, using the script, sending emails, [re]scheduling meetings, and entering data into Salesforce. Is ready and willing to distribute and QA every lead.

    In SDR and BDR roles

  82. Don’t be tempted by magical thinking – outsourcing BDRs won’t fix your problems.  In fact, the cost of the agency will shine a glaring light on every crack in your lead-to-revenue process: Are the handoffs crystal clear across your documentation, automation, and sales teams? Do you agree on BANT criteria, or what an Opportunity even is?  Are rejection reasons standardized?  Who creates the Opportunity once it’s qualified?

    In Workflow automation

  83. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Working with an agency

  84. Measure your baseline SLA compliance first That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Why?  Because SLA compliance is usually abysmal.  Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time.  The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention.  It also eased the pressure on the agency when they hit 25% SLA compliance because, after all, it was an improvement.

    In Working with an agency

  85. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. Our client’s inside team completely ghosted 60% of all inbound leads 🤯, and only met the SLA 16% of the time. Get your s%!t together

    In Working with an agency

  86. Before embarking on any changes to process or staffing, get a baseline KPI.  That’s usually SLA compliance rates for calling and booking meetings with inbound leads and outbound prospects. The transparency was a shock to the system, and it helped build a case for radical intervention. Get your s%!t together

    In Working with an agency